Forum Activity for @dusty

Dusty Turtle
@dusty
07/28/18 01:37:55PM
1,872 posts

Intermediates


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Folks, I didn't provide the criteria from the Berkeley Dulcimer Gathering because I agree with the descriptions there or think of it as the standard we should all adopt.  I just wanted people to see an example of descriptions that list some specific techniques, since the original question was about "skills" that would be considered intermediate.


Banjimer: If we're talking about dulcimer workshop levels (and it sounds like we are), the solution is to have a short description of what will be taught.  Then the attendees can decide if they are ready to learn that particular skill. 

I agree, @banjimer.  However, a lot of workshops don't actually teach skills but teach repertoire.  There are tons of workshops, for example, on Irish jigs or English country dance tunes or whatever.  In those cases, people need to understand the skills they should already have to benefit from the workshops.


notsothoreau: I would say it's possible to be an excellent musician and not read music. It's a good skill to have though. 

Yes, there are plenty of great musicians who can't read music.  But some degree of music literacy is necessary if we are going to talk about how we're playing, to teach and learn from one another.  I give dulcimer lessons at a music store and they get a constant stream of young guitar players who want to teach there.  But many of them have no understanding of the basic concepts of music literacy, so they can't explain how to construct a chord or how long to hold a given note. All they want to do is show people how they play.  That approach is of limited helpfulness.


Ken Hulme: IMHO "Intermediate" is just a state of mind. 

I agree, Ken.  That's why I asked the question in an earler discussion about when people know they are no longer beginners.  A lot of people hold onto that "beginner" label as a crutch, as a way to lower people's expectations of their playing.  But in my mind if you can follow simple tablature or follow by ear and eyes someone playing a simple song, then you are no longer a beginner.  You've reached a basic level of proficiency that deserves the term "intermediate."


 


BUT . . . at the risk of upsetting many of my dulcimer friends . . . I do think that dulcimer players have two main limitations which impede our progress as musicians.  One is the inability to do anything with the right hand other than strum across all the strings all the time.  The second is the inability to play in keys other than D.


Just because we have three strings doesn't mean we have to play all of them all the time.  We should be willing to sometimes play a single note or sometimes just two. And yes, that might mean working on the right-hand techniques to strum two strings or pluck one-at-a-time.


And if you ever want to join a jam that is not limited to dulcimer players tuned to the key of D, you need to understand how to use your instrument to accompany others playing in other keys.  Without this ability--which requires some basic music literacy--even intermediate and advanced dulcimer players would be considered beginning musicians.  I'm not suggesting that I can jam with a saxophone player in Bb, and I admit to "cheating" by retuning and/or using a capo when I can, but the old timey music scene includes fiddle players who want to play in A and banjo players who want to play in G and so forth.  We should all aspire to being able to join them.


 

Strumelia
@strumelia
07/28/18 12:07:44PM
2,421 posts

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Lisa G. brings up a very good point- a dulcimer with added 4.5 and 11.5 frets would be quite difficult to sell.  Most folks who use extra frets in addition to the common 6.5 fret would want either 1.5 and 8.5 or all the way to chromatic.

FWIW, I play only in noter style and 'usually' in DAA type tuning, but I have found it very useful in oldtime fiddle sessions to have the two extra pairs of frets;  6.5 & 13.5, and also 1.5 & 8.5.  But for relaxed playing at home I do also enjoy and can appreciate a total diatonic fretboard and retuning to different modes while playing older traditional music.

As long as there are still a few diatonic fret spacings I've not found it hard to keep my bearings visually.  Once you get to chromatic I'd recommend having a few inlaid fret markers (like guitars and fretted banjos tend to use).

Strumelia
@strumelia
07/28/18 11:52:13AM
2,421 posts

Intermediates


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

notsothoreau:I just think that beginners sometimes get so focused on learning a song that they don't understand the ways they can change it around and make it their own.

I've seen that as an issue for both beginners and intermediate players.  Sometimes we get so focused on not stumbling or playing a single 'wrong' note that we forget about playing expressively and forget about the importance of the right hand as well.

Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
07/28/18 11:49:24AM
2,157 posts

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General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

notsothoreau: I just think that beginners sometimes get so focused on learning a song that they don't understand the ways they can change it around and make it their own.

That, plus it seems most beginners get caught up in collecting tab and playing only from tab without actually learning to play from memory.  I don't know how many folks I've seen who literally have to use tab to play Boil Them Cabbage!!!

IMHO "Intermediate" is just a state of mind.  If you play better than most of the folks around you, but aren't up to "really good" (in your mind) players,  I'd say you're intermediate.

 

notsothoreau
@notsothoreau
07/28/18 10:25:15AM
46 posts

Intermediates


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

To be honest, I wasn't thinking about workshops. I like to be able to judge my progress when I'm learning something. And I like to see more advanced techniques, because then I can see how it fits together. I'm starting to understand how to use chords now. You can play the melody, then drop in a chord at a good spot.

I would say it's possible to be an excellent musician and not read music. It's a good skill to have though. I think it's a good skill to be able to play a melody on the bass string or the high end of the dulcimer. I like the idea of learning riffs, to drop in as needed. I just think that beginners sometimes get so focused on learning a song that they don't understand the ways they can change it around and make it their own.
Banjimer
@greg-gunner
07/28/18 09:42:43AM
142 posts

Intermediates


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

If we're talking about dulcimer workshop levels (and it sounds like we are), the solution is to have a short description of what will be taught.  Then the attendees can decide if they are ready to learn that particular skill.

For example:

"This workshop will teach the three basic chords in D-A-A tuning and some basic rhythm strums."

"In this workshop you will learn hammer-ons and pull-offs and how to apply them in the songs you already know."

"This workshop will teach you how to retune to the four most common modal tunings."

"Dulcimer Duos.  This workshop will teach you how to play with another dulcimer player.  One will play play the melody and one will play back up chords."

The best workshops I've ever attended were taught by Stephen Seifert, who took a single tune and presented it in stages.  In essence, he taught those attending how to begin with a simple melody and gradually add different techniques to make it a more advanced arrangement.    

Strumelia
@strumelia
07/28/18 05:06:49AM
2,421 posts

Intermediates


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

This is a good and useful discussion!

In reading the Berkeley guidelines, I have to say that some of those criteria for being Intermediate seem more suited for Advanced however. I'd never meet those standards, especially the parts about " to play in and modulate to different keys with and without a capo or retuning; to flat-pick and fingerpick a tune"..... sigh... I guess I'll be an eternal beginner.  bigsmile   Also, is it not possible to be considered an advanced player without ever reading either Tablature or sheet music?- an intriguing question.

NSThoreau, I think you are right about the fact that there is often less info geared towards the huge segment of people who have just gone beyond the beginner stage. There must be good explanations for this but I can't think of any right now.

One would think that by the time one is an 'advanced' player they'd be at the point where they could be teaching  most of the workshops at festivals. Maybe there should only be one advanced workshop- called Teaching Advanced Playing Workshops... but then would they just be teaching each other how to teach the workshop?  hahaha
Sorry I don't mean to make light of this, but the problems and ironies of this classification system have always struck me. I've always found workshop festivals to be a mixed bag, partly because it's hard for me to know where I even fit in, and often by the time I figure that out, it's over.  

Eric Barker
@eric-barker
07/28/18 12:56:13AM
3 posts

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Matt, Thank you, I will look for the Daa forum.

Ken, Thank you too. I am not sure of the style I play. I like to play my melody on the middle string while strumming instead of the normal melody string. I use chords on two or three pieces but usually let the melody strings drone on.

Lisa, thank you. I was wondering about the fret issue and will have to think about the 4+ and 11+ or the 1+ and 8+ situation. Which gives you the dorian?

 

notsothoreau
@notsothoreau
07/27/18 10:36:49PM
46 posts

Intermediates


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I find that very helpful. Thanks! I've seen this problem in learning other skills. There's a lot of info on getting started, then info for those learning advanced techniques. There's not always a good way to progress from beginner to advanced though.

I'm still in the beginner's camp but working towards that intermediate stage. This gives me something to shoot for.
Dusty Turtle
@dusty
07/27/18 09:32:00PM
1,872 posts

Intermediates


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

@notsothoreau, my personal opinion is that if you can play basic tunes reading tablature then you are no longer a beginner.  To some extent, that is a confidence and proficiency issue. If I tell you to play me a 3-3-5 chord, do you have to count frets to figure out where your third and fifth frets are?  If so, you are probably still a beginner.  But if you know the first octave of your fretboard, you are probably an intermediate player. Most festivals might refer to left-hand techniques such as hammer-ons and pull-offs as intermediate-level skills.  And among those of us who chord, we might point to the ability to play a certain number of chords, to be able to play more than one voicing of basic chords, and perhaps to understand some basic chord substitutions.  The ability to play in more than one tuning would probably be considered an intermediate skill as well.

But there is clearly no criteria that will fit everyone. I came to the dulcimer from the guitar and mandolin, and my right hand technique was advanced before I ever touched a dulcimer. Once I learned three or four chords, which I did the first 20 minutes I had a dulcimer, most people would have no longer considered me a beginner ,even though I had no understanding of the fretboard and was horrible at reading tab. (I'm still pretty bad at it today; I need to look at my instrument!)

The Berkeley Dulcimer Gathering posted the following criteria to help festival attendees identify the best workshops for them. It is admittedly centered on chord/melody play, which will not fit traditional gatherings at all.  (Although I regularly teach at that event, I had no hand in writing these descriptions.)


Absolute Beginner: You do not need previous dulcimer experience or musical background.

Beginner: You know how to hold your instrument, and can strum and play some simple tunes. You may not feel confident yet, but you love the music that your instrument can make! These classes will help you learn some chords, gain more comfort with your instrument and your ability to find and play tunes by ear and from music and tablature. You do not need previous dulcimer experience or musical background.

Intermediate: You have the skills of the previous levels and you’ve learned the basics of strumming and reading tablature, you need to expand your playing techniques and musical theory. You are learning to embellish your basic music with hammer-ons, pull-offs, and slides; to adapt an arrangement with different chord positions; to play in and modulate to different keys with and without a capo or retuning; to flat-pick and fingerpick a tune. You can play in different tunings.

Advanced: You have the skills of the other levels plus the ability to play at least 4 chords in DAd or DAA tuning, to use 2-3 fingers (left hand), and be comfortable with at least 2-3 basic rhythms, utilize melody runs on all the strings using scales, then adding arpeggios and patterns from within chords, as well as a strummed chordal melody.


updated by @dusty: 07/27/18 09:34:20PM
notsothoreau
@notsothoreau
07/27/18 09:07:11PM
46 posts

Intermediates


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

There was a discussion earlier about people continuing to refer to themselves as beginners, even though they were no longer beginners skillwise. I'm curious as to how someone would determine that they have in fact progressed beyond the beginner stage. What skills are necessary before you can call yourself an intermediate? Is it simply attitude? Confidence?


updated by @notsothoreau: 10/27/19 12:02:25PM
Lisa Golladay
@lisa-golladay
07/27/18 06:39:54PM
109 posts

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Short answer: The equivalent frets for CGG tuning would be 4+ and 11+.  However, depending on the scales and chords you want to play, you might prefer 1+ and 8+ anyway.

Long answer:  For people who play in DAD/CGC tuning, the scale starts at the open 0 fret.  Adding the 1+ fret gives them a flatted 3rd note.  That note is critical for playing minor scales and very handy if you are lazy like me and you don't want to re-tune or capo every time you want to play the blues.

In DAA/CGG tuning, your scale starts at the 3rd fret.  The 1+ and 8+ frets give you flatted 7th notes.  This lets you play a Mixolydian scale without re-tuning.  If you wanted a flatted 3rd note instead, you'd need the 4+ fret.

So... do you want to add a flat 3rd or a flat 7th?  Would you rather play Dorian and blues -- or Old Joe Clark?  The easier question is how often do you wish you had a fret at 8+?  Compared to how often you wish you had a fret at 4+?  If you've never wished you had either, maybe you don't need extra frets.  How often do you re-tune now, and why?

That was all about scales.  I can't help much with chords in CGG but you get these additional notes for building chords:

E-flat and B-flat with a 1+ fret

A-flat and E-flat with a 4+ fret

Another factor to consider is the 1+ and 8+ frets are fairly common now.  You can find tab and chord charts (though mostly in DAd) and it won't be hard to re-sell a dulcimer with those frets.  The 4+ fret is less common and it will be harder to find resources and harder to re-sell.

Patricia Delich
@patricia-delich
07/27/18 01:01:16PM
154 posts

Hearts Of The Dulcimer Podcast In Its 4th Year


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

You may want to consider listening to the Hearts of the Dulcimer Podcast episode about Steve called The Many Modes of Stephen Seifert http://dulcimuse.com/podcast/resource/036.html


 


notsothoreau:

I did not know about the Stephen Seifert workshop! I signed up for it. It's going to be tricky. We are trying to get our house on the market and really wanted to get moved out of the area. I'm gambling that I will be here for the workshop. 



 

Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
07/27/18 11:51:53AM
2,157 posts

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

What Matt said -- you will get a few extra notes, but it depends on what kind of music you're playing whether those particular notes will do you any good.  In your current repertoire, are the significant (say even 10%) songs that require those 'non-traditional' notes??  

Are you playing Fingerdance or Chord Melody style?

notsothoreau
@notsothoreau
07/27/18 11:48:50AM
46 posts

Hearts Of The Dulcimer Podcast In Its 4th Year


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I did not know about the Stephen Seifert workshop! I signed up for it. It's going to be tricky. We are trying to get our house on the market and really wanted to get moved out of the area. I'm gambling that I will be here for the workshop. 

Matt Berg
@matt-berg
07/27/18 07:45:51AM
107 posts

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The DAa forum would give you more guidance.  In DAd, the 1 1/2 - 8 1/2 frets give you the ability to play F on the D strings and C on the A string.  You would gain the same notes DAa or DAd.  Whether you would use them depends on the songs you play. 

Diesel
@diesel
07/27/18 12:40:14AM
6 posts



I like it!  Very musical.  And I like the connection to your grandmother.  Thats what makes our instruments special to us.

Patricia Delich
@patricia-delich
07/27/18 12:29:50AM
154 posts

Hearts Of The Dulcimer Podcast In Its 4th Year


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks for coming to the workshop! You all sounded so wonderful together. And Wayne and I had a blast.


Wayne really knows how to fix up dulcimers ... that's why all the dulcimers we brought sounded so good! We were glad that there was an extra dulcimer for her to use during the workshop.


BTW, did you know that Stephen Seifert is coming to Portland in September to do a 3 day workshop? Here's the info:  http://www.stephenseifert.com/three-day-registration/generic-three-day-lyb7e


Hope to see you again in another dulcimer setting!


 


notsothoreau:

I still want to listen to the Podcast. BUT...I attended a one hour workshop by the Hearts of the Dulcimer folks last night. I haven't had a chance to play with anyone else so this was great. My husband was impressed by how all the dulcimers sounded. Thank you again for doing that workshop!


 


I did feel badly for the lady next to me. She'd spent $200 on a dulcimer shaped instrument, with an action so high that it was difficult to play. I just hope people will do a little research before they get that first instrument.



 

Ken Longfield
@ken-longfield
07/26/18 09:48:30PM
1,356 posts

Choose just ONE song for all eternity...


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

After a great deal of agonizing, a lot of playing, and careful consideration, I finally chose my song. It is Bob Franke's "Alleluia, The Great Storm Is Over." I have not been able to get it out of my head since my first post in this discussion. 

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

notsothoreau
@notsothoreau
07/26/18 09:13:22PM
46 posts

Choose just ONE song for all eternity...


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I'm really infatuated with Southwind right now. Still working on playing it.

notsothoreau
@notsothoreau
07/26/18 09:11:49PM
46 posts



I don't normally name things like this (and I don't really name my treadle sewing machines either, except that I have too many Singers to just call them Singer.) When I got this dulcimer, I decided to call it Alta Bell. That was my maternal grandmother's name. She wasn't particularly musical but it seemed like a good name for an instrument.

notsothoreau
@notsothoreau
07/26/18 09:08:15PM
46 posts

Hearts Of The Dulcimer Podcast In Its 4th Year


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I still want to listen to the Podcast. BUT...I attended a one hour workshop by the Hearts of the Dulcimer folks last night. I haven't had a chance to play with anyone else so this was great. My husband was impressed by how all the dulcimers sounded. Thank you again for doing that workshop!

I did feel badly for the lady next to me. She'd spent $200 on a dulcimer shaped instrument, with an action so high that it was difficult to play. I just hope people will do a little research before they get that first instrument.

Eric Barker
@eric-barker
07/26/18 07:21:30PM
3 posts

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I have been thinking of a second dulcimer with extra frets at the 1 1/2 and 8 1/2. But I like to use the DAA tuning down a step for singing. I know that DAD players gain some tunes/songs with the extra frets but I am not sure if the 1 1/2 and 8 1/2 frets would be the correct extra frets for a DAA (CGG) tuning system. Any advice? Thank you!

Dusty Turtle
@dusty
07/26/18 12:01:29AM
1,872 posts

Will donate student dulcimer to needy beginner


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Very generous.  The dulcimer community is just wonderful, isn't it?

Ken Longfield
@ken-longfield
07/25/18 09:56:53PM
1,356 posts

Will donate student dulcimer to needy beginner


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Richard, that is very generous of her and you. I'm currently working on refurbishing a kit built dulcimer for a friend of mine to give to one of her students. She is always looking for instruments to get children from our area started on the mountain dulcimer. Someone will have a fun time getting started with the Apple Creek.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Richard Streib
@richard-streib
07/25/18 07:50:23PM
279 posts

Will donate student dulcimer to needy beginner


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions


The widow of my best friend has asked me to help dispose of her late husband's student dulcimer. It will be a gift to someone (child or adult) who wants to learn to play but who does not have and cannot afford a dulcimer to start out on. The dulcimer has been played very little and looks new. It comes with a padded soft case and I will cover shipping cost for a needy learner within the 48 continental states. It is an Apple Creek ACD100 tear drop shaped model with 24.25", VSL just right for a smaller handed person or one whose hand has limited mobility.

I would like to suggest that the recipient learn to play the dulcimer and when they no longer need this instrument that they would consider passing it on to another needy learner.

Thanks for reading this.

 


updated by @richard-streib: 10/27/19 12:02:25PM
YeahSureOK
@yeahsureok
07/25/18 08:20:52AM
11 posts



So I have been having trouble with my rhythm/strumming technique. I was going to post a question but first thought I'd search the forums.
Love this thread. It addressed my problems and then some. I know it's a 5 yr old thread now, but I wanna say thanks, anyway, to everyone who contributed here.
jeffrey charles foster
@jeffrey-charles-foster
07/25/18 06:36:29AM
6 posts

Show Us Your Pets!


OFF TOPIC discussions

congrats on the new member of your family.

 

Norman Arrington
@norman-arrington
07/24/18 07:44:12PM
4 posts

Choose just ONE song for all eternity...


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

The selections picked speak well of the poster's taste and convictions.  Seems we need to find a folk hymn based on an irish air. I do love "Be Thou My Vision."

Glenda  Hubbard
@glenda-hubbard
07/24/18 05:13:46PM
18 posts

Choose just ONE song for all eternity...


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

[quote="Ken Hulme"]

Glenda -- that's a really different tune for Going Home.  Had never heard it, but I like it. 

The one I'm familiar with (and play) is based on The Largo from Dvorak's From The New World symphony,with words by William Arms Fisher in 1921.  The English boy choir Libera has an outstanding version on YouTube.  I don't have the high sweet tenor voice, but do a passable baritone version.  

  Yes that's one of my favorites too Ken. That's why I mentioned the movie Gods and Generals so it wouldn't be confused with the other song by the same name . I liked to do a medley of both songs you cant beat the beautiful version by the boys choir could listen to it all day. It was a hard choice and glad we don't have to be put in a situation where we would have to choose. 

hugssandi
@hugssandi
07/24/18 12:16:51PM
249 posts

Choose just ONE song for all eternity...


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

OH Susie...  I love "Wild Mountain Thyme" and would be delighted to hear you play it....

Diesel
@diesel
07/24/18 12:05:33PM
6 posts



As we all are eventually.

Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
07/24/18 09:26:45AM
2,157 posts

Choose just ONE song for all eternity...


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Glenda -- that's a really different tune for Going Home.  Had never heard it, but I like it. 

The one I'm familiar with (and play) is based on The Largo from Dvorak's From The New World symphony,with words by William Arms Fisher in 1921.  The English boy choir Libera has an outstanding version on YouTube.  I don't have the high sweet tenor voice, but do a passable baritone version.  

Foggers
@foggers
07/24/18 07:47:51AM
62 posts

Choose just ONE song for all eternity...


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

What a great question. Specifically for dulcimer, I would have to say Pretty Saro. I play it on my little ginger scale McSpadden, in reverse Ionian G. Someday I should post a video!

Dusty Turtle
@dusty
07/23/18 11:38:07PM
1,872 posts

Choose just ONE song for all eternity...


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Right now I'm thinking the fiddle tune "Liberty."

I've heard old timey versions , superfast bluegrass versions , a classic Cajun version , and a beautiful, slow version on the autoharp by Bryan Bowers that has a hymn-like quality to it and ever so slowly picks up momentum.  So I'm thinking the song could suffice for any mood.  

There are no words to it, so I could spend my time on that proverbial desert island writing lyrics!

Susie
@susie
07/23/18 09:40:35PM
513 posts



I lead a non-creative life....mine are all referred to by the builder. wasntme


updated by @susie: 07/24/18 02:29:20PM
hugssandi
@hugssandi
07/23/18 08:22:45PM
249 posts

Choose just ONE song for all eternity...


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

The song I want to choose I cannot play yet!  "My Savior's Precious Blood".  Of the things I can play, which I understand is the actual question, I guess "O Master Let Me Walk With Thee".

  328